“We need a coalition of the willing. Asset owners need to prioritise collaboration.” - Melanie Leech - Executive Series #7

Melanie Leech is the Chief Executive Officer at the British Property Federation, a leading representative body for the UK real estate sector, advocating for a diverse, sustainable, and successful industry that contributes £110 billion annually to the UK economy and supports 2.5 million jobs through policy engagement, industry collaboration, and support for innovation and growth.

Melanie has been the Chief Executive Officer of the British Property Federation (BPF) since January 2015, following nine years as Director General of the Food & Drink Federation. She began her career as a Metropolitan Police officer before holding senior roles in the civil service across areas such as customs, arts policy, broadcasting, and rail regulation. Awarded a CBE in 2015 for services to the food and drink industry. During her tenure at the British Property Federation, Melanie has overseen the BPF’s “Building Our Future” manifesto, the merger with the UK PropTech Association, and the creation of BPF Futures, a network for young professionals, and much more! Melanie also serves as a trustee of the property industry charity LandAid and is a member of the Council of the University of Essex.

Tune in to this session to gain insights into:

• The BPF’s work;
• Next steps for achieving net-zero targets in real estate;
• Opportunities for collaboration between governments and real estate players;
• What it takes to revitalise UK town centres;
• Productive sustainability initiatives in property development;
• How tech firms can play a role in government-led real estate initiatives;
• The UK’s position in global property investment;
• The role of young professionals;
• Melanie’s takeaways from her time as a police constable in the Metropolitan Police Service;

And so much more!

Interviews with inspiring Founders, Investors, and Real Estate Executives will be shared weekly on this podcast series - follow the PropTech Talks interview series and stay tuned!

Connect with me on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-maltzoff/

Transcript

00:00:00 Matthew Maltzoff
 Welcome, everybody, to today's edition of PropTech Talks where we talk with different prop tech executives, real estate executives, investors, entrepreneurs. Today we have Melanie Leech, the CEO of the British Property Federation. Melanie, great to have you.
 
 00:00:17 Melanie Leech
 Thank you. Really good to be here, Matthew.
 
 00:00:19 Matthew Maltzoff
 Cool. Well, let's jump into it. So I think you've got quite an interesting and unique journey to where you are today. Can you tell us about it? Tell us how? Tell us how the Melanie journey started.
 
 00:00:33 Melanie Leech
 Well, I think, I think what you're saying very politely is there is no plan or apparent coherence to my working life journey. And I guess that's because I've actually just done things that have motivated me or that I've wanted to do. So I have, I think, quite a strong public service ethic. So when I left university, having studied maths, I knew I didn't want to be an accountant. No disrespect to the accounting profession, which is a great profession, but I didn't want to do that. I've been quite active, quite sporty at school, so I wanted something that would be similarly active. So I joined the police force and I served as a police officer in London for four years and then for a variety of reasons decided that, you know, that wasn't going to be the long term career for me. So I left the police but joined the civil service and I had a fantastic career over a number of years in the civil service doing lots of different roles, following what I thought was interesting, then ultimately came back into the civil service having done some succumbments just after the birth of my second child. So I had two small children and at that time thought the life of a senior civil servant, which was, you know, long before we all worked remotely or, you know, had even the tech, you know, the basic tech that we take for granted today was much more needing to be present, long hours in the office. And I didn't want that life, as I say, with a, with a, a young family. So I left the civil service and joined the Food and Drink Federation, which is a trade association for the food and drink sector. So still working on public policy, but just representing a different stakeholder point of view. And did that for almost 10 years and then got approached to join the British Property Federation. So similar role, just in a different sector, in property and moved and moved a decade ago. So I've just finished ten years at the British Property Federation.
 
 00:02:18 Matthew Maltzoff
 Amazing. And so I'd like to go into just a couple pieces there that I personally think are really cool. So the the police, how I mean that that must have even been just such a such a unique component of your career in itself. How do you think that's actually shaped you as a person? Has it shaped you as a person? Has it helped you as a leader? What what are your thoughts that?
 
 00:02:47 Melanie Leech
 I think it absolutely did. I mean, I think I made the right decision to leave after four years, but I wouldn't have missed those four years at all. So many good memories and experiences alongside some of the tougher times. I suppose, You know, what being in that kind of sort of very public facing role with, with the public, you know, in extremists quite often, whether you know, whatever their challenges might be, it teaches you a lot about empathy. I think it teaches you a lot about being able to read people and situations. It teaches you a lot about negotiation and navigating through complex situations, you know, where you might nominally have the power because you've got the uniform and you've got the authority being a police constable. But as a, you know, as a young woman in central London, you know, you've not actually got much power in some of those situations. So I think it took me a whole load of people skills and and maybe some resilience that have stood me in very good stead throughout my career.
 
 00:03:44 Matthew Maltzoff
 Really cool. And I think that's something we're probably going to go into a little bit later, especially when we're thinking about government coordination, working with different stakeholders, thinking about empathy and also resilience as as a combination that something to talk about soon. One thing that happened recently, just a jump, jump ahead actually, is the recent merger with the UK PropTech Association. Can you tell me a bit about that?
 
 00:04:10 Melanie Leech
 Sure. So we'd, the UK PropTech Association was quite a young company. It only started I think six or seven years ago. And from the start, we'd worked quite closely with them, built really good relationships. But I guess probably 2 1/2 years ago now. So the merger happened in October 2023. So, you know, for the year or so before that, I think we'd increasingly, as we explored how we could collaborate more closely together for the benefit of both the proptech and the property communities, we'd increasingly come to the view that what we needed was to bring us completely together. Partly because that was a very strong signal about how each of us felt about the integrated nature and the way that proptech needed to be integrated into the thinking of the property sector. And partly because we could see that we would have more impact that way. So it was good for both sectors, but I think it was also good for what both of those sectors wanted to achieve in terms of relationship with wider stakeholders, including government, the media, investors and so on. So it felt like a very natural thing together to do, to come together fully.
 
 00:05:18 Matthew Maltzoff
 And this almost feels like it's it's, it's was the right thing to do even even on a on a business decision has is, is, is that a lot of how the BPF operates? It's really thinking what actually is best for, you know, real estate and on the whole in the country. And then can we make this work from the business side? Is that is that do you think a fair way to assess that.
 
 00:05:46 Melanie Leech
 I think it is, I think it's certainly the way I come out leading the BPF is to say, you know, what is in the best interest of the industry. And I think my public sector background helps that because I firmly believe that it's just as important to be challenging the industry and supporting the industry to be a better industry and deliver more benefits, you know, to it's wider stakeholders and to local communities as it is to represent their interests effectively to government. It's a virtuous circle if you like, because I can't be credible as a partner to government if I'm not representing an industry that behaves as if it wants to be a responsible party to government. So the two things very much go hand in hand I think. But it has to start with, you know, what's the best thing for the industry in order to allow it to deliver the best outcomes.
 
 00:06:33 Matthew Maltzoff
 Amazing. And so, so now looking a little bit at the BPF’s current initiatives, something that's quite powerful is the “Building Our Future Manifesto”. So you know, thinking about building for productivity and growth now a lot of maybe developers, asset managers and even the, and the proptech side, you know, we've gone through a period. Well, first they, they, they've got used to a period of very low interest rates and where growth was maybe easy is not the right word, but it was definitely easier. Then there are a few blows, pandemic, supply chain issue and interest rates increase altogether. And now there still is a sense of optimism and even, you know, this way of thinking, building for productivity and growth. What would what would your message be I suppose to developers, the the you know, the tech companies who are now creating building for a building for a future? What would be your advice there with respect to their this manifesto?
 
 00:07:40 Melanie Leech
 Yeah. So we published that just over a year ago, so well ahead of the general election, although that came rather quicker I think than anyone was expecting. And really what we wanted to do was make it really clear and simple for an incoming government to understand where property and proptech sit, you know, in terms of what should be their priorities, who was going to help partner them to deliver. And you're right, you know, we had four pillars in that. So building for growth, building more homes, building stronger town centres and building the green economy. And I suppose the the underlying message is, you know, you can't do any of those things. You can't deliver economic growth, you can't build more homes self evidently, you can't regenerate town centres, you can't create a new green economy without putting buildings in the built environment at the heart of that. Because you know, most working life takes place in buildings, whether that's offices or whether that's shops or restaurants, whether that's life science labs or factories or manufacturing. You can't, it's all happens in buildings. Your homes are buildings. So if you start from there, you know, we are the infrastructure that delivers all of those benefits. So, you know, that was the message, I suppose to our stakeholders and to government ahead of the election. And my message, you know, sort of back to my stakeholders in the industries of probably in public is, you know, the good news is I think that since the election, the government is listening to that message and understands that, you know, I'm really encouraged by how quickly the Labour government moved on You know, what we told them were the biggest blockers, you know, particularly in the planning system, but now also in some of the statutory consultees that sit alongside the planning system. You know, I, I'm really pleased by how I think the government's responded and heard that message. So I'm quite excited that, you know, real estate is at the heart of thinking policy, thinking in the way it probably hasn't been for quite a long time. And I also think, you know, we've had really productive relationship with Ministry of Housing, communities and local government around proptech. I think, you know, there's a good level of understanding about what a jewelling the Crown UK proptech is and how much bigger that could be. So we recently launched a report which they commissioned looking at the future of proptech, sort of trying to be a sort of, I suppose, a resetting of our understanding of the proptech sector, where it is now, what the potential is, what the barriers are to growth and so on. And that's intended to be the first step in a series of joint working we're going to do with government over the next year or so, really to try and help the proptech sector, you know, and help investors understand it, help the sector to grow and thrive and, and open up, you know, even more. The opportunities for engagement between the property sector and the proptech sector, which was at the heart of the merger, really was trying to bring the two sides together to have a more productive conversation.
 
 00:10:35 Matthew Maltzoff
 Amazing. And let's let's look at the let's look at one of the components here with a little bit more detail, which is the sustainability and oh sorry, building the green economy. So supporting net 0 initiatives. Now you know, a lot of countries, not just the UK have of course net zero goals and a lot of both government side, but then also LPs and investors also having net zero goals. But at the same time, every building is different. It's, it's, it's, it's not necessarily a a quick plug of technology company. And let's solve this. How? How should at a high level, how should governments and different developer and property stakeholders start to approach this productively?
 
 00:11:29 Melanie Leech
 So I think government's role is to set the framework because you're right, every developer, if it's a new building or every asset owner, if they're facing a retrofit challenge, has to approach that challenge according to the unique nature of the building or buildings that they are, you know, creating or, or or owning and managing. But they have to have a clear framework within which to take the decisions they're going to need to take. So they need to know, you know, where, where they need to get to and by when they need to know, you know, in terms of the infrastructure that need will support their net zero journey. And of course the National Grid being the critical part of that for many, you know that that's going to be able to deliver what it needs to to because you can't create a net zero building in operation if the energy that's coming from the grid isn't clean energy, for example. So I think, you know, government's job is to look after the infrastructure, sort of the national assets part of it. I think it's then to create a clear policy, long term stable policy framework so everybody understands the rules of game and can then play their part within it. And then the final bit is, I think, you know, there need to be incentives, you know, for everybody from large scale commercial asset owners through to those of us who are lucky enough to own our own homes, You know, because it's, it's something that those who have the means to do may prioritise and say this is the right thing to do, I should do it. But not everybody has that by a long stretch, you know, and a lot of people don't live in their own home. So I think it's really about how do you create the the infrastructure, the policy framework and the incentives for those for whom otherwise this just isn't going to be a a viable decision.
 
 00:13:20 Matthew Maltzoff
 And so listening to that, I mean, it really sounds like this is a case of, of very deep collaboration. Because for, for the, for the structure and the, and the platform to be in place that the government, for the government to set out that, you know, they really need to understand it from the developer's point of view. But then for the, the developer to act in, in a way that, that actually delivers on something that is beneficial to the country, not necessarily what the, the, the, just the, the sole business objective. I know some developers are really good, that some developers are actually less. So how, how does that, how does that collaborate, that sort of deep collaboration really happen? You know how how? Yeah, I guess that's the question. How does that deep collaboration, you know, really happen? How can we make that happen?

 
 00:14:14 Melanie Leech
 I think it's at a number of levels. So there's a level which is about national government listening to stakeholders and understanding the issues and taking the decisions only it can take. And for example, you know, I think one of the biggest issues for us thinking about the role we could be playing in building the green economy is the amount of surplus clean energy we could be generating and passing back to the grid. Because if you think of all the roofs on top of logistics facilities, warehouses, etcetera, etcetera, you know, I think that could be generating up to 20-25% of the UK's energy requirements if it was possible to connect that energy the feeds back into the grid and if there was a tariff price that made that an economically viable investment for those those businesses. So there's a huge opportunity there. So that's sort of at national level. Then I think, you know, this is going to be increasingly important at regional and local level because part of the answer to decarbonizing, you know, it has to be thinking in terms of neighbourhoods, in terms of towns and so on. So, you know, development of heat networks, development of local networks, you know, that are off grid but are self-sustaining, you know, and those don't happen by 1 building or one asset owner or even someone, you know, like the owner of King's Cross, you know, the estate, you know, they happen by bringing together local authorities with local people, with local asset owners, with tenants, you know, so they meant, you know, a lot of this is about tenants as well within buildings. They may not be the owners of the buildings, but the way they use buildings when they're tenanting them will be critical to whether how, how a building performs in practise. So I think, and that's a really exciting journey. I think that, you know, a number of parts of the country are already on. So there, the work that some people like the Connected Places Catapult are doing is really important I think in in gathering together those learnings and enabling pilots to happen that just help us to understand how we could do this. And of course the UK is not doing this in isolation. There's fantastic practise across the world as well in these kind of areas and this kind of thinking. So, so yeah, I think, you know, deep collaboration is critical, actually, and it's important not to get too siloed, I guess.
 
 00:16:38 Matthew Maltzoff
 And you know, when, when thinking about the future, a, you know, a large, I guess a large next step, a crucial next step is thinking about the younger professional network. There seems to be sort of out of nowhere a a lot more young entrepreneurs. You know, I, I sort of went, even went into this with PropTech Connect, even wondering, am I sort of too young? I'm going to do it. But if I too young to do this? And then that same year there were, there was Hybr with Hannah, there was Castrix, there were all sorts of young, young entrepreneurs making a really impactful, impactful difference. And I know that the I know that BPF has the established BPF Futures. You know what? What would be your advice to young professionals who do want to make a difference and, and continue to drive real estate and, and, and real estate forward within the country and within whatever they're doing? Yeah.
 
 00:17:46 Melanie Leech
 Well obviously I'd say join BPF Futures because anyone can join whether or not their company is a BPF member. Far be it from me from my vast age to give young professionals advice. I mean, I guess what I'd say is, firstly, this is a fantastic place. You know, whether you're in tech or whether you're in property, it's a fantastic industry to work in. And it's, you know, a bit old fashioned, but it's changing quite fast. And, you know, young professionals coming in with fantastic energy, diversity of thought, you know, they are the people who will drive that change more quickly. So I would say, you know, don't be afraid to challenge, want to have a voice, find the mentors, the allies, you know, who can make sure you have a bit of protection around that when you need it. But I would say absolutely, you know, don't don't be afraid to have a voice. And we, we've worked really hard at the BPFI think to make sure that young professionals have a voice within everything we do. So, you know, we always look to in our major events to include a strong BPF Futures voice across our policy work. We increasingly, I think, have BPF Futures representation on most of our committees. The chair of the BPF Futures Advisory Board, which runs BPF Futures with support from my team, sits on our main board. So we think it's really important. And we're also working at the moment on ideas to try and bring a collaboration of different groupings of young professional voices together to be an advocate for the sector to government and with our stakeholders more widely. Because I think, you know, a lot of the issues that government considers from a policy perspective, a lot of the things we're thinking about, you know, they are the stakeholders. You know, if you're talking about the future of town centres or you're talking about, you know, building more homes and what kind of homes we want and what kind of, you know, communities we want, you know, then someone who's 40 years younger than I am by definition has a lot more skin in the game than I do, without getting too morbid about it. So it's absolutely right that we hear young professionals voices. And actually, you know, what's great is you're talking about the industry being quite old fashioned, which is undoubtedly is quite slow to change because it hasn't needed to. We need the disruptors. I'm not saying that older people can't be disruptors, and I'm not saying that every young professional is a disruptor, but bringing in a much broader set of perspectives, much more challenge. Much more energy and insight around, you know, what the future looks like from people who have a real stake in the future is really important I think.
 
 00:20:25 Matthew Maltzoff
 And an interesting, interesting point to you you've made that I think on two things. The first, the industry hasn't really needed to change previously pre pandemic that the real real estate was sort of sort of a game of, you know, buying commercial space. You know, the the lease is going to last for 15 to 25 years sort of leave them to it kind of thing. And it changing quickly at the same time, sustainability having more of an effect on asset value, more of an effect from a more of a, a desire from government data being more important because assets are behaving differently than they used to. So they are more nuanced, given all of that. And there's, there's a, there's a lot more driver for change and there's a lot more reason to change. Do you see from the, let's say the, the more traditional real estate side, do you see increased appetite for change? What, what does that actually look like in practise with the, with the different developers, with with respect to all of that?
 
 00:21:28 Melanie Leech
 I think, I think you know, it, it's, it's easy to talk about the real estate industries if it was kind of a homogeneous thing and it is, it really isn't, you know, So at one end of the spectrum, I think, you know, you've got large scale businesses, whether they are in public markets, in REITs and so on, or whether they're private markets or the institutions, private equity and so on, you know, who have the ability and the resource and capability to think about these things. And I see lots of evidence in my membership and across the sector that is happening at pace. You know, they, they want to employ very different people, you know, not just chartered surveyors. And that's not, not chartered surveyors or, you know, specialist planners or whatever it is. You know, they want people who know all about customer insights. They want people who know about change management, about tech, about data, about AI. You know, it's a very different profile of, you know, the skill set that's needed to work in a modern real estate company at that end of the spectrum. But then you've got at the other end of the spectrum, you know, you've got small owners, you know, who are struggling, you know, on the edge of, you know, what's possible to do to invest in their portfolio or to, you know, to really make meaningful differences and no headspace or resource to think about it. So I think it's, you know, it's very much a kind of divergence of ability to to think about these things and to respond to them, which is why, you know, both regulation and incentives and support are important because we're going to take everybody on the journey. You know, you have to face the fact that not everybody can invest in the way that, you know, some company like British Land in my membership or LMG and funds, you know, we'll be able to do. People don't just have that capacity. So how do we help them and make it possible for them also to come on the journey?
 
 00:23:26 Matthew Maltzoff
 And so it's, it's interesting though, that the larger organisations seem to be leading the way, which from listening very positive. I didn't, you know, I didn't know that even the way they're structuring their organisation is with with the future in mind. What So over the next I guess 10-20 years, what what do you think? I know it's a very broad question, but what do you think that future actually will be looking like? Are we going to be seeing, do you think an increase in sustainability? Do you think, how do you think we'll be doing in terms of build, building more homes? And also what's sort of next for the BPF, I know there's sort of two questions there, but what what with with mind to that what, what would be next for the BPF?
 
 00:24:08 Melanie Leech
 Yeah. And I should say, I mean, to, to your last comment on what I said, there are lots of small businesses, lots of great entrepreneurs coming into property who don't come in with all of the baggage of how we've always done things. So I don't at all want to suggest there won't be innovation, you know, at, at in the SME part because I think that you're right. You know, that's where innovation generally comes from. And I think, you know, if you don't come in sort of known for the last 100 years, this is how we've built a building. You come in with, I want to make a difference. I want, you know, what's available to me. So I think it's, you know, as as the market brings more product that helps you solve challenges, then you'd expect the SME and the entrepreneurial end of the of the spectrum to just, you know, start in a different place if you like.
 
 00:25:00 Matthew Maltzoff
 Which which actually works really well. Yeah, which actually works really well.
 
 00:25:05 Melanie Leech
 So what's next for the BPF? Well, I mean, I guess we're trying to showcase to government, you know, what the future could look like if it works effectively in that kind of de collaboration across all areas that we touched on earlier on, you know, and that could look like, you know, us getting close. You know, I think 1.5 million homes by 2029 is pretty ambitious. But you know, the, the objective is actually, you know, to, to make a step change in the delivery of homes of all 10 years and to make to sustain that over a long period of time. And I think that is absolutely achievable. And I think the government's very clearly set its mind to how it's going to do that. And for us, you know, we don't represent the house builders for sale, but we represent the rental part of the market. So for us that looks like growing the built to rent sector significantly. So I think we delivered 18,000 built to rent homes to market last year. You know, we think you could get to 30,000 some of our members think you could get to 50-60 thousand, you know, so filtering, you know, a professionalised private rental sector could be a very significant contributor towards the homes target, as could all the amount of institutional capital coming into affordable and social housing. You know, where we really need to drive a difference. And we think, you know, there are things the government could do which involves spending money on their part. So it remains to be seen whether or not they can prioritise that that could deliver 100,000 plus affordable homes a year into market over time. So I think and then if you think about town centres, I mean    green economy a bit.
 
 00:26:49 Matthew Maltzoff
 Can we go into that in a bit more detail actually, because that's an interesting part. So, so the, the at face value, it's sort of upgrading to town centres and sort of bringing them back. What, what's, what's the, what's the thinking thinking there? And and why is that available?
 
 00:27:05 Melanie Leech
 So I think I start from proposition that, you know, there is there's no blueprint, you know, that says X town centre should look like this because it has to be locally driven. You know, it has to start with the local authority leading a conversation with local stakeholders about what do we want this town centre to look like. And the last government introduced a concept called High Street Accelerators, which gave a little bit of money for local authorities to be able to create that conversation, which I think is a great starting point. We argued and we're disappointed they didn't go further and pick up our model on this for something more significant called Town Centre Investment Zones. And really what that means is you kind of throw a ring. You just, you know, the local authority throws a ring around the area it wants to focus on. And within that you kind of throw every lever you've got at your disposal into the pot. So that might be something around business rates retention, that could be around using CPO powers that could be that, you know, there are financial incentives needed to attract businesses back into that place. It could be as funding needed to create community assets. You know, it, it would be very bespoke to the area, but driven by local people and, and actually the local assessment of what is realistic to try and achieve. Because, you know, if you've got no real employment in the town centre and you've got no good transport that allows people easily to commute into, it's probably not going to turn into a data centre harbour or an AI harbour, you know, whatever. You've got to be realistic about what it could be. And you've got to look forward, not back. But that was that was the concept we had. And it has to say it has to be locally driven. And there are lots of our members, you know, particularly in the retail sector, which is shrinking, but still vibrant, you know, in, in, in its core. You know, a lot of them own a lot of the assets on these high streets. Some of them will need repurposing. Some of them will be, you know, the vibrant shopping hubs of the future. But we do see that it'll be much more bear reduced. There will be people living on our high streets. There will be doctors, surgeries, community hubs, you know, all these kind of things. And, and it's it. But it takes a lot of hard work, I think, you know, even to have the conversation, let alone to figure out how you create the asset base and the investment base that then enables you to put that into practise.
 
 00:29:34 Matthew Maltzoff
 And it, it seems to be almost a, a, a self fulfilling cycle in that when you, when you, when you start to, we're, we're talking about business rates when we start to, you know, retain good businesses that are retaining talented people, then more people want to be there and then, you know, the businesses will grow. So, so it's a, it, it's an, it's an, it's an interesting step that's going to, you know, allow these town centres flourish and, and come with a cascade of positive effects. My, my thinking is, and, and, and also at the same time, many cities are doing it very well. So, and I recently was in Dubai and I couldn't believe even the shopping centres and the malls and the infrastructure that they had. And everybody's, you know, it's a, it's a very car city, but everybody in many of these, in this, in these sort of hubs are all, they're all walking around. So it's, it's, it's possible the and, and at the same time they're attracting a lot of business and retaining a lot of business over there as well. Do do you think the the town centre initiative it doesn't potentially doesn't get enough attention and almost love from even the technology side? And do do you think that there's an opportunity there?
 
 00:30:50 Melanie Leech
 Potentially, I think, you know, at a number of levels, I guess I mean, there's an opportunity and we touched on it earlier on in terms of things like heat networks and local networks for energy and so on. I think if you can get, you know, once, once you build that coalition of the willing if you like. Because the other part of it has to be, you know, you have to say to anyone who's an asset owner or, you know, an actor within that zone, if you don't be part of this, if you don't accept that you have to contribute over and above looking after your own little interest, then leave. You know, you can't, you know, And and that's where I think the local authority might need the powers to be able to buy someone out and say, it's fine, you know, we'll give you a fair price, but you walk away. Because the condition of staying as part of this is you know you have to contribute to make the the whole greater than the sum of the parts.
 
 00:31:42 Matthew Maltzoff
 And and it benefits then and it will benefit.
 
 00:31:45 Melanie Leech
 Exactly. And it will benefit then. So once you've got that coalition of the willing, then I think all things become possible. And you know, it may be that tech is part of driving that or it may be that tech is part of the solutions provider to that coalition, if you like. So I think, you know, in a number of different ways, it could be and should be fundamental. And I guess the other part of that is, you know, that tech folk are good at kind of thinking off the wall and thinking differently about things and, you know, sweeping generalisation. But in, you know, I think that that's true. You know, it's just a different kind of approach and mindset to, to finding answers to challenges or creating opportunities. And I think, you know, that's a, that's a perspective that would add real value in a lot of these conversations.
 
 00:32:38 Matthew Maltzoff
 I actually definitely think the, if, if you do get these retail owners and these landlords and, and there are sort of a list of nagging things that they should be doing that they might not want to be doing. Whenever there's that sort of situation, the technology company thinks, well, I can make that very easy for you and pull a lot of push a lot of buttons. The last thing to to look at here is the, the, the, the international property investment collaboration that the, UK’s position sort of globally and in Europe. A lot of, a lot of change in the world very recently and it seems to be changing very quickly at the moment. So, but, but I still think that this is the, you know, UK’s sort of position globally and investments, you know, the direction of investment, you know, around Europe and around the world. Where do you, where do you think it's going? And what what might the UK, given everything we've talked about, what might the UK need to do to sort of strengthen its position?
 
 00:33:53 Melanie Leech
 Yeah, I mean, I think I can only speak for property and tech. And I think we're all kind of waiting to see how the Trump administration, for example, you know, pans out in practise. We're waiting to see, you know, what it feels like, you know, zoom right out. There's a lot of change going on globally, at the moment.
 
 00:34:11 Matthew Maltzoff
 It feels like everybody's sort of on the edge of their seat for something in a movie.
 
 00:34:14 Melanie Leech
 Yeah, it's a bit like that maybe. And I think, you know, I think the the sands are shifting and I don't know where that will end up. But in terms of property and proptech, you know, the UK has always been a magnet for global investment into real estate. And that's because, you know, we're very transparent to the market, you know, the rule of law, stable politics, you know, broadly and, you know, we've had a few bumps along the way and that in the last few years. But broadly, I think those things remain true. And I think, you know, this government is working hard to, you know, make sure that that that remains the case. So I would expect, you know, that global capital which has choices to make, you know, would would continue to want to come to the UK. So I think it's ours to lose rather than, you know, have to work hard to sort of redirect from other places. I think, you know, we're a natural choice for quite a lot of the globe, language, time, all those things, you know, and all the data shows that we are still attracting significant amounts of capital and we're still a destination of choice. And, you know, that's sort of historically been generally London that is changing slowly. I think, you know, you can particularly, you know, the hubs like Manchester and Birmingham, so you can see that changing and particularly the long term patient capital I think is is keen to be part of the infrastructure story, keen to be part of the regeneration story. So I think that's all very positive. And on the tech side, you know, I think we are one of the best places to be a proptech business in the world. You know, and it's up to us to shout that story, tell that story, working in partnership with government and make sure that, you know, A, that stays true. But B, we kind of get the benefits of that, both in terms of attracting more capital and more investment into the UK, but also translating that into delivering beneficial outcomes to the UK property market.
 
 00:36:09 Matthew Maltzoff
 And, and it and it is moving positively in that a lot of these tech businesses are growing, they are attracting capital, they are attracting great people. We're still, you know, incredibly international city. You know, I'm just thinking about our own office. How many of us are actually British? I don't even know, but maybe 30%. And this is the final question, I promise. What would be your advice to the, let's say the more traditional property side going forwards?
 
 00:36:46 Melanie Leech
 I think be willing to be challenged, embrace change and join the British Property Federation.
 
 00:36:55 Matthew Maltzoff
 Fantastic, Melanie. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for participating.
 
 00:37:00 Melanie Leech
 Thank you very much. Thank you.