"A call for collaboration to handle RE transformation" - Anja Rath - Investor Series #4

Anja Rath is the Managing Partner & Co-Founder at PT1.

Anja has been an entrepreneur for over 20 years. Thoughout her years of cross-industry experience, Anja was always focussed on digitalisation. The opportunity to start PT1 came about when Anja was looking for the next industry to digitalise. Together with her long-term business partner Nikolas Samios, Anja founded PT1 in 2018, a fund focussed on pre-seed and seed investments into transformative real assets technology.

Tune into this session to gain insights into Anja’s journey launching a fund in an untapped industry, the key ingredients for a winning founding team, how to build investor-entrepreneur relationships that are conducive of value creation, how VCs look at company growth, where the PropTech industry is going, and much more!

Connect with me on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-maltzoff/

Transcript

00:00:03 Matthew Maltzoff
 And we are live with another podcast. Welcome everybody to this edition of PropTech Talks where we talk with successful executives, investors and entrepreneurs about their stories, the nuances in the industry and how to capitalise on them. So we're here with Anja from PT1. Anja, nice to have you today.
 
 00:00:25 Anja Rath
 Good to meet you.
 
 00:00:26 Matthew Maltzoff
 Good to meet you too. SO to jump right into it, I think it'd be appropriate to 1st understand a little bit more about you. We've have worked with a lot of managing partners so far at the event and not so many are women. OK, There's a slightly more important topic for me simply because my mum was an entrepreneur as well and it's always interesting to sort of hear how well the business was back then, the sorts of things she was doing. I've always been really excited and inspired by it and it's been some of the inspiration for why, you know, I'm, I wasn't very passionate about it, but I'd love to hear your story, how you ended up pioneering the first top tech venture fund in Germany. So over to you.
 
 00:01:19 Anja Rath
 Yeah, yeah. So actually I'm just an entrepreneur for about like 20 years already on my own. I started out back in 2002 roughly and I was always interested in digitalization. So back then I was focusing on industries that are facing the digitalization, the transition process in 2002 thousand and two. And my first industry was actually the publishing industry. So what I spent a lot of time in was projects to discover how digital, how to translate their core business in a digital world, how a new business model would look like, all that stuff. And then I worked my way through corporate finance and venture capital. And yeah, like 10-15 years ago in venture capital, they were even less female than today. So I was always, to be honest, used to it that there were not many female colleagues around me. And in this area, I spend a lot of time on working for corporate and portfolio strategies, designing corporate venture models for the industry. And on the other side of the table, doing a lot of work with entrepreneurs, doing coaching, fundraising support. I did a lot of buy side, sell side M&A. And so I'm with the venture industry for like 15, twenty years roughly. And in 2018, to be honest, my long term business partner and I sat down and we thought about like, yeah, So what is actually the next industry to digitalize? And we looked to the US, to the UK and stuff, and we recognised like real estate has to do something. And as I worked years like in building venture capital structures and supporting entrepreneurs, we actually decided just to launch the first fund in this area. So that's story behind it. And yes, and even in real estate and in proptech, they're even less female founders or managers or venture capitalists. That's true. But now I see you and you know that also recognise there's a change and you see more colleagues there. But to be honest, I was always used to over the last 20 years that there is, it is quite a male dominated area. It has been a male dominated area, yes.
 
 00:03:37 Matthew Maltzoff
 So moving on to the launching of Pt1 with your colleague. Now you mentioned there was not too much technology in real estate in 2018. It was lagging behind many other industries. You know, this going to, I guess when you're raising money for this fund, it can sort of go into two ways because on the one hand, you know, people could be thinking, oh, great, that's where the opportunity is. But on the other hand, it's like, well, why isn't there technology? So in 2018, I can see how this would have been quite the bet. Now, you know, a lot of companies with, you know, increased regulations need to take on technology that with the sustainability process, they, they need to improve operational, operational efficiency. But five years ago, you know, real estate was, was in, was in kind of a nice position where you, you know, you, you either made good bets or very good bets. Interest rates were so low, you could just borrow and get a higher yield. So, so how so? So I guess how did you know? How did you convince LP's to get get behind the mission as well?
 
 00:04:41 Anja Rath
 Yeah, yeah, absolutely true. So back then it was a super comfortable position. So it was not about like finding technology to make more money because it didn't make any difference if you have like a few percent more or less. So back then it was in our first fund, the LP's were mainly companies that has like these innovation for this innovative agenda who really wanted to be ahead of the market who have been interested in technology. So this this part of innovation was a key topic in their agenda and that is why they turn to prop tech and try to understand the market and try to test the market. Because they not only invest in the market, many of them are also like really using companies technologies we have in our portfolio, we see everyday. But they are really interested in in being a client and being on the other side of the project, not only investing it. And that was definitely in the first fund, the main profile of the average profile of the investor. So it was not someone who was under pressure because he needed to invest or understand technology. It was like being keen and trying to understand and trying to find like what are the key advantages of the and what brings me ahead of the market. So that was as the main driver for the LP's in fund one, definitely in in fund 2 changed a bit the profile, the pressure is increasing, the topic of sustainability, the topic of climate tech became more, more more relevant. So yes, there is a certain pressure and also due to the macroeconomic situation, the fact that you are not anymore as spoiled as you have been back then. So you now need to make sure that you have a good budget, that you optimise cost. That also is something that drives massively our proptech industry because that now technology becomes more and more relevant to the market. And so that's where the profile changed a bit, yeah.
 
 00:06:37 Matthew Maltzoff
 Really interesting. And I suppose you know, your background coaching entrepreneurs. I mean it was in different industries. You know, I know that you've mentioned in a little bit of media and you know, other industries. How how did selecting companies and and sort of finding, finding winning entrepreneurs? How did that change moving into prop tech? Was there any difference at all? Was there a huge learning curve or some big differences? How did that change?
 
 00:07:08 Anja Rath
 When you yeah, that's a good point. The what prop tech, what makes prop tech specific or different to the other industries is that there is a huge gap between traditional industry and prop tech when it comes to technology infrastructure. So to to adopt technology to an existing market has been in, in the real estate industry more challenging than it has been for instance, in fintech where you have like where you're closer on a technology level in the, in the target market than you are in here. So it was not only the entrepreneur who has a digital background, who has been serial entrepreneur in this area, but you also needed people that understand the market and understand what you can use or apply in this market where you have resilience, where you have structures that do not allow you to, to go on this technology or to build on this technology. But they have the many different criteria that make more challenging. And so the profile for the founders for for the founders for us was always to make sure that they understand both world, that they are not only digital natives and you know, know how to digitalise an industry, but to really understand the real estate market and understand what works and what doesn't work. And you see that also when you look at the first companies like back in 2018 or sometimes many of them did like small pivots or, or restructured or went bust or whatever. Because the from a, from a digital perspective, the product was really good, but it didn't fit to the market. It was not accepted on the market. You needed to have or share more stakeholders involved if one party doesn't join. So then the full idea collapsed and all these problems came up quite early. And so the challenge was always to find founders who understand both worlds. I think that is still today the key in decision making.
 
 00:09:08 Matthew Maltzoff
 And is and is that still how, how it is at the moment? Is it now a little bit easier for tech companies to integrate into, you know, larger traditional businesses or is is project still a lot tougher than let's say insurance or or another type of banking?
 
 00:09:28 Anja Rath
 No, I wouldn't say that. I, I wouldn't say it's tougher. The, the point is what you always need and that's for sure. You need an ambassador on the target side. So you need on a client side on on your target side, you need a structure that is able to deal with what you're trying to integrate. And this is something if you do not have that, it won't work. So that's for sure. So that is what we learned over the last year. So you need to really make sure that the willingness to adopt is there and the structure is also in place to work with these new technologies, to integrate this new technologies. If you do not have that, if you do not take care of this, you will probably fail because there is, there is not enough how you say willingness to go with this technology and you need that because like the change is so fundamental of the existing structure to a technology based structure, so fundamental that you definitely need that. Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't say it's, it's easier or more difficult than other industries, but you need to make sure how you how you address the market and how your product is product is designed for the market. Yeah.
 
 00:10:33 Matthew Maltzoff
 Really interesting. So when it, when it comes to the actual investments PT1 makes, has there, has there been a significant change in the last couple of years? You know, obviously the, the, the amount of deals that are taking place sort of worldwide has, has decreased a little bit. I guess investors are a little bit more selective. How? How is that actually looking at PT1?
 
 00:10:59 Anja Rath
 Yeah. So it's, it's less than being selective because that's your something you always have to be. But the profile changed a bit. That's true. Because if you look at Fund 2 currently, it is a lot about the green transformation in general. So if you also look and and I think in UK that's the same like in Germany. If you look where the money in the product industry were generated, it was always companies that have been related to either building, retrofitting or like energy supply, energy management, energy storage. So these are like the core topics investors spend money on currently and where's the highest need. And this is also what reflects our fund too. If you look at the Fund 2 investment, there's a strong focus on green transformation, everything that relates to it. So I would say yes. And you know that we're still having a broad profile, contact public, whatever, but currently, these are the transfers, the highest demand for it. And that is also reflected in our fund too. Yeah.
 
 00:12:01 Matthew Maltzoff
 If if an entrepreneur was to come to you today and they've got an amazing idea, what would, what would you, what would you look for immediately? Are there, are there certain qualifiers and disqualifiers? Do they need to have a certain amount of experience? Do they or what are the sort of things that, you know, the sort of initial profilers that you look for when? Yeah.
 
 00:12:29 Anja Rath
 Yeah, Yeah. To be to be honest, like when it comes to the management itself or the founders itself, it is definitely the level of experience. And it does not need to be like a serial entrepreneur. But it does need to be someone who has a long experience in the market he's targeting or who has an experience in being an entrepreneur in digitalising, building technology platforms and also need to have a well balanced set up. That is also what we're really looking at is that you do not have only one strong founder because that's sometimes really dangerous. You have one strong founder and you ignore him technically the management structure around it. So you need to make sure that like the key areas that you need to to tick in the box to make sure that this product and this company works, they are already in place. It does not mean that probably that changes the structure changes over a year or you hire another C level, but like the core competence you need, they should be in the founder team, reflected in the founder team and that is definitely what we look for. And yeah, so and, and also like full commitment. So you see sometimes also now solutions where you have founders coming from a different area, having a different job, trying to set up a new project, looking how it works out. That's not nothing we go for. So we will, we need a full commitment and we need to make sure that there's no conflict of interest between the founders and us. So we need to make really to ensure that all that everybody's on the same page in this process and especially if they come from an industry background and not from a venture background. So because the venture has like a really defined target and where you want to go and how the road map has to look like actually. So you need to make sure that there's a same level of interest.
 
 00:14:13 Matthew Maltzoff
 It's, it's actually so interesting to say that because when, when we were raising money to do our first event, I, I was thinking, well, I kind of have not really any experience. I know, I know, I'm pretty sure I know what to do, but I have not much experience. But I thought, who can I bring on with me who actually has so much experience where you know, it, it, it just increases the chance of actually achieving the capital we required. Now, in hindsight, OK, that did work. But what really the value in that was is the is having access to all the blind spots that you're not aware of, You know, just that extra pair of eyes that, you know, in another direction is huge. You wouldn't. And you don't know what you don't know. Yeah, it's really interesting you you say that when you start.
 
 00:15:08 Anja Rath
 And there are manufacturers of failure because no, I always pay to every founder respect because I think, you know, that's like being able and willing to do something like that in a currently challenging market situation. So I pay everybody a respect. But as you said it, if you have in a specific area you're competent, that's not necessarily necessarily the area you fail. There might be like 5 other factors you do not have on your in your view, you don't have in your mind and you recognise that kills you later on in a process, especially when it comes to faster grows. When everything works out fine, it's good. You know the problems come up in difficult times and and then you need a solid structure. You need to be aware like all the potential areas of failure and you need to have someone, as you said, people who are able to do that. It's no one asked one person to cover all that, but you have need to have a good solid starting team in place that the investor trust and at least to bring it to the next level, you know, and then you can look how it change over time, but that's what you need.
 
 00:16:12 Matthew Maltzoff
 Very, very interesting. So when you, when you look at typical venture capital investments, the model, as I understand it, you're looking for one or a few investments that what, what typically happens a few investments will sort of pay for the portfolio and then some, right? That's the traditional venture capital model. Does that mean, you know, when you're actually looking at investments, you're always sort of looking for that revolutionary idea each time, you know, that company that has the potential to be 100 million or a billion valuation in 5-10 years. How does how does that actually look in practise?
 
 00:16:50 Anja Rath
 Yeah, Yeah, that's a huge discussion about that. This is a typical model. We also see from the US like you have like these 123 Unicorn potentials and therefore you need definitely some radical, some new solution and high innovations. For us, it is kind of a mixture. We do, we look for that as well. But we also have like companies in our portfolio that have a solid growth rate. They have a lower risk level and risk exposure, but they suffer a high demand in the market where you say like a lot of industry clients are interested in this area, but maybe they do not have these massive growth rate or the market is also a bit mature already. So they grow a bit slower, but they are not on that high level of risk exposure you have if you do something brand new, highly innovative. So we to be fair, we balance a bit out. So we also invest in cases where we say like, yeah, probably not the billion case, but lower, but has a good solid growth rate. And I think it's a fair mixture, especially in the market because if you look at our LPs, our investors, you know, they are not exposed to or they are not used to do like pure only high risk investments. So they are also interested in having like a solid portfolio where they see like these are interesting technologies that work out, that develop the market, but it does not need to be the pure bet on one case. So everybody's looking for the unicorn, no doubt. But to balance it out, I don't think that's the wrong way. I some funds do it that way, some funds do it the other way around. So it is like kind of a mixture to be fair.
 
 00:18:33 Matthew Maltzoff
 It's, it's, it's refreshing to hear because quite a few venture capital investments investors will say like we're really only looking for those bat in one cases. And you know, the, the analogy is the, the difference between I guess a baseball bat in one and invest in that one. In, in baseball, you only get 4 stops and that's it. But in, you know, if you strike lucky on the entrepreneur, it could be 9000, right? It could just, it goes so big. The problem though, is that the, you know, the success chance is obviously low. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs stick their eyes on the on the, you know, 5000 extra time and they and they go for it. So when potentially a strategy is maybe evolution, not revolution, right? You know, an iteration of something that works that you can see has a direct way of, you know, selling quickly, you know, at the beginning. So it's a it's an interesting discussion for sure.
 
 00:19:36 Anja Rath
 Yeah, and especially if you look at the times at the moment, you know, I mean now or, or especially last year venture capital also asked their portfolios try to get rather profitable, try to get your cost under control over the level of growth. If you have companies, you know where, where the minds that have found us on the growth is like on yeah, building a solid and rather healthy structure. So that can help in difficult times as well. You know, because they for them it's easier probably to balance out and to become on a, on a, on a break even level. Yeah, of course then you do not have these growth rates. For sure, but it, it secures you on a certain level for amount of time like half a year, year and then you go back on the growth path. So I think that's fair. You know, both strategies are fair, but I, I wouldn't say we had had bad experience with also adding companies as you said that have like a evolutional character family. So we did not have any bad experience on that case.
 
 00:20:34 Matthew Maltzoff
 See, and, and to clarify, when you say the level of growth this is, you know, this is sort of the decision to not be profitable, but actually put money back to the business to keep gaining customers. Is that what you're trying to?
 
 00:20:49 Anja Rath
 Yeah, if you if you say like so venture capital means as it's an inorganic growth, yeah, you put money in the company growth they'd gained revenue and and later on some level they get profitable. That's what you always need and that's for sure you need approved for the growth and the growth is not only spending money building a huge structure, but like making sure that the core KPIs that makes this business successful show and grow over a period of time. So that is healthy growth. You know, it does not make sense just to special amount of money and just, you know, build up a huge a massive company. You always need to make sure that these key KPIs, the key drivers of the business model grow with this and then it's fair and then you can adjust that break even and getting profitable is, is, is the consequence, you know, but that is something you have to be really careful and you see that on the market, you know, how the market responds, how long has the sales cycles? How easy can you sell the process? How, how are the churn rates, for instance, which is in real estate really a big topic. You know, getting the product in place is one thing, but making sure they'd use it over a long period of time, that shows that there is a high level of acceptance on these technologies and that helps you to sell it to further clients. So these are the factors you really make you need to be aware of when you fund growth. It's not just only, you know, having a cool marketing story, it's really to focus on, on the core KPIs.
 
 00:22:16 Matthew Maltzoff
 Interesting. So the when a, when a company actually gets investments from PT1, what's next? Are they are they just building their product? Are you, are you doing pre seed investments? Have they already been doing a bit of revenue and now they're marketing what's, you know, once once they've done the deal, what are they looking to do?
 
 00:22:36 Anja Rath
 Yeah. So we say we are a seed investor. So we, we do sometimes pre seed cases, but most of the time we look like for a certain level of proof that this product is interesting to the market that there are have been pilots already that there's a certain level of acceptance. So that is cool. In fund one, we have been often a lead investor in the cases. So we feel also responsible for supporting the company. We join the boards, we try to use our and that makes a difference if you're a prop tech investor because your LP circle is like most of the time the target group because they are all companies that relate to real estate in a certain extent. So we have for sure banks, insurances and whatever, but they all focus on their, they're all interested in this real estate part. So what we try is we try to generate benefits for the portfolio companies. We try to support them. We also try to challenge them. So this is something what we do in both funds and fund one. We have been often lead investor and fund 2 not necessarily but we also are happy to. But this is something what we try. We try to create value to the company to bring it to the next level. And then when you bring it to the next level, it comes to the stage where they need the next funding round. And then we are also really supportive in this area because instead of something we have done like for the last 20 years. So really trying to make sure that there is a value add for the company that often the founders are not experienced in fundraising because they haven't done like three companies before. You know, fair enough, you know, but you need to have a good setting that helps to bring them to the next level. And that is what we try to do. And that is also the benefits we try to create for the companies and also really drive the interaction between the funds and us. That's a different when you're early stage and later stage, you know the best. SO early stages investors are still very close to the founders. You know and and and and you need to have a healthy relationship. If you do not, you do not need to be best friends, but you need to have a healthy relationship and be honest and true. And then, you know, you can also tackle problems when they come up and not, you know, you get the call later on when everything is done and there is no chance to react or to interact or whatever. So these healthy relationships is something we're really looking for in this early stage. I think that's most important when it comes to seed stage and early stage financing where you have to look at.
 
 00:25:02 Matthew Maltzoff
 I'd imagine a lot of a lot of issues that early stage companies have could have been resolved with a difficult conversation between the founder and the investor one month earlier.
 
 00:25:13 Anja Rath
 So that's what I meant exactly. So, you know, the most important part is someone picks up the phone and calls you when there is a problem arising and not when it's done. So and, and, and, and that is something we always try to make sure that's we have a close interaction. We do not tell our companies or our founders how to do their business, but really, really try to track closely, really try to interact, create value and also have like, even if it's uncomfortable, you know, you know, these discussions are most of the time not like the, the, the joyable ones. You know, you, you really have a lot of problems and there might be discussions and they might also have a negative twist or whatever, but you need to have these interaction to help and get the problem settled. So.
 
 00:25:57 Matthew Maltzoff
 It's one thing I've always found so interesting speaking to different founders is that there doesn't seem to be a 1 size fits all way to operate a business. You know, when speaking to speaking to this group of pretty, pretty successful fintech founders and they said for the first two years they were seven days in the office every single day. The first two years, right. I speak to this other guy the other day and he said, yeah, we all work four days a week, you know, two days in the office. And they were and they were doing really well. And I just think some people have it so easy or sort of and some other companies they have to, they're just on the phone non stop selling and selling and selling and selling and they might get a deal and they're still growing. You know it's. So do you find there's A1 size fits all different or no?
 
 00:26:49 Anja Rath
 No, no, there's not. No there's not. But what is a fact is like for us, I can always speak for myself, but I, I need this attitude of the founder that they really want to succeed and they really want to grow and that they also really want to spend a lot of attention on the company, on the project they are doing right now. And, and I probably, I don't know, but I probably if someone tells me, well, we are just working four days a week and whatever. I don't know, at the first level, I probably would say I'm not working four days a week. So, yeah, I really would probably try to understand it. Some business model makes it easier by the way. So it often is related to the business model. You know, if the business model and I was you to work on that level or is the, you know, if it's a team is structured a different way, I'm happy to. I do not want every founder to work seven days a week. That's not because that's also that's the next problem. You know, you see a lot of founders spending like having a burnout after two years. That doesn't help you. So that's not something we are looking for. But for me, it's about attitude, attitude and like really so and if they've succeeded to work four days a week and they still have top results and they everybody's happy. So great, you know, but it is about attitude and it's not only, and that's the next point, you know, just working purely working hard not always makes you successful that the next thing. So you, you really need to find a good structure to work out. You make sure that you do not get a burnout after two years because that helps no one and but it, it is about like how you how you face that and and what your attitude is towards your business definitely.
 
 00:28:33 Matthew Maltzoff
 I think, I think 11 caveat to that business, the founder knew so many of his customers before launching the company. So, you know, he was sort of getting deals before the product was even done, before the project, you know, even started. He was signing contracts. He said, OK, we'll deliver XYZ, I'll go build it now. So he, so he was in a more comfortable position. But no, I, I'd be inclined to agree. And I'm always surprised if I hear that if a founder doesn't want to come in back into the office, you know, almost because the industry, the direction of the industry is really, you know, as as juvenile as it is to say, it's fun. I find it fun so.
 
 00:29:18 Anja Rath
 Yeah, you need to be really into that what you're doing, that's for sure. Yeah, and but, but what you mentioned that also what I sometimes say that or we recognise is also dangerous. I mean, you sometimes have this company on a level where they have like 3 big names and a pilot face or early stage face and they have these big names because they knew them, you know already or have a history or whatever. That does not prove that your model is working and that does not prove that these are the size cycles you usually are facing. So I always say like it, it is great to have them as a pilot partner, whatever. But that's not a proof that you can scale this business model because at one day all your contacts are done. So then you need to do outbound sale and you know, and then you need to have a structure how it works or you have great product, then you have inbound. But you need to, you need to work with like you need to make sure that your product and your sales structure and your sales cycles are on a level that you can manage scale and that is not reliant on people you know already. And you have and you have already done your pilots on. And most of the time they are also the first investors, you know. So then they are the first investors, they are the clients. It's good to start, but that's not a proof, you know?
 
 00:30:35 Matthew Maltzoff
 Really, really like that. OK. So you mentioned fun too is more about green transformation. What is the actual direction of the industry and sort of what’s next? What's next for for yourself and PT1?
 
 00:30:48 Anja Rath
 Yeah. So the industry in general, that's what I said before. I think of for the next years, they're like 4 main, main topics, but topics like when it comes to building, retrofitting, so and, and energy, energy supply, energy demand management. This is either the areas sustainability in general. These are the areas where investors will put their main attention over the next two or three years. I think from my personal viewpoint, I think a super interesting topic, but that hasn't been really touched so far is the full climate resilient part. So this will become more and more relevant as we are not able to meet our 1.5° target. So what does that mean for the real estate industry? How do the build world needs to look like in five, 6-7 years from now on? But this is an area I'm personally or we are propped up on a super interested in as well. And I think this is also something we will focus on in front too. In general, I say these are the main topics. Yes, that's true. But also we look at any prop tech and contech business out there. So this is also the fact because you have now trend topics does not mean that the other ones are not relevant to the market. They are just currently massively affected by the real estate industry and the current macroeconomic situation. But that does not make them less relevant. And so everything that happens on the construction side and makes it more efficient is super relevant as well. And so we look like at the full scope of prop tech contech and energy infrastructure. But I would say everything that is related to green transformation is is is a topic we are specifically interested in.
 
 00:32:35 Matthew Maltzoff
 So not so much on, not so much on AI then I haven't heard that those two.
 
 00:32:41 Anja Rath
 Yeah, AI AI is a big challenge so far in the real estate industry for sure. Definitely it's part. But I would always say it's part of one of these disciplines. So it is not about like AI as a single business more or less for me. It's like, you know, a part of one of these solutions. So they might be AI based and and this will definitely also come up with the next year. You see that already it's just like as in many other industry to make AI related models easy, scalable and really fully automated. That's a key challenge we are facing in this area. But that will be part of of prop tech as well for sure.
 
 00:33:22 Matthew Maltzoff
 Last question, what would your advice be to entrepreneurs who are just looking to launch their next?
 
 00:33:29 Anja Rath
 So try to avoid doing nice to have solutions currently. So that's not the market. So you you really need to solve a concrete problem. Otherwise it's currently probably not there the market for you. So that's what I would definitely recommend to do. And what I also said even if you go in a market there where you have already a peer structure and you're not like the first one to enter, make sure that you really understand what your target group is. Be aware of the safe cycles in real estate. That's for sure. But you see that also like you had been, there have been, I don't know, like I think in the last three years, the highest rate of new, new company that have been launched in Proptech in, in Germany at least. So that shows that people and founders are still willing to enter market, even if it's quite challenging. So I'm, I'm absolutely optimistic that this will not be the problem. You know that there are founders there, they know their job, they know what they have to do. So I'm still optimistic. And as you see currently, the market's going up as well. So that would be my advice to the founders. Advice to investors is probably, I mean everybody knows in times where markets are not overheated, it's a good moment to enter. So I would not be afraid to enter the market currently, even if real estate is probably still for a year, for another year struggling. But for sure everybody knows it's the biggest asset class in the world. So there is no work around. You know, we need living space, we need a solution, we need sustainable solutions for the future. So there is no work around you. We'll probably not come back to the level to this level of comfort they had the last 20 years. But there will be progress. There will be solutions out there and in a market that is not overheated like prop tech currently, except probably one or two or three areas where you say there is already like a high level of competition coming back. But I would always say to an investor, that's the time to invest so.
 
 00:35:37 Matthew Maltzoff
 Amazing. And it has been, and I suppose to the final group, to the executives and those who are actually looking to digital visually transform their traditional real estate businesses and organisations, what would your advice be to them as well?
 
 00:35:49 Anja Rath
 Yeah, good point is I would always recommend to make sure that you have a structure in house that helps you to adapt to this transformation process because just buying in new solutions is not the solution. And and I don't think it's right to expect from, currently the demand is like you expect the prop tech industry, the technology company that they serve that they they solve this problem. But at the end of the day, it's like, but also your responsibility as a client to make sure that you have a structure that enables you to live this transformation because otherwise it won't help. So you cannot tackle every problem on a on a start up, on a venture side. You know, you need to make sure that you face people on the other side, they are also able to adapt and to adjust. And that is something what I always recommended to make sure that you have also knowledge in house you know and not only expect that the knowledge comes from the new product, make sure you have knowledge in house that you have have a smooth level of transition.
 
 00:36:51 Matthew Maltzoff
 Anja, this has been an extremely insightful episode. It's a pleasure having you on. So thank you very much for attending today.
 
 00:36:59 Anja Rath
 Thank you.